If I'm Honest with keisha osborne
If I'm Honest with keisha osborne
Another Look at Professional Dress with JaRon Gilchrist
Today I'm talking to JaRon Gilcrest about standards of professional dress and the imbalanced expectations on Black and Brown interpreters. He talks through his research and then we just chop it up about the imbalanced standards.
Welcome to, if I'm honest. On today's episode, we are talking to Jerron Gilcrest about his research that he conducted while he was in the Masters of Interpreting program. What I like about this conversation is he brings research to the interpreter archetype and we discuss the standards of professional address and how they adversely impact black and brown interpreters. what I also like about this conversation is it's like one of those private conversations that typically happens between black and brown interpreters on a regular basis. We've been having this conversation for years. But now I get to invite you in, so come on in the room. Let's talk about it. Welcome to, if I'm honest, a podcast where we address and discuss issues in the sign language interpreting profession using an anti-racist lens. Here we intentionally take up space and we say the thing, we name the thing that previously hasn't been named in Efforts to change, challenge and dismantle problematic narratives in our field. And we do this because an anti-racist interpreter is just a better interpreter period. I'm your host, keisha osborne, and I've been having these conversations. For over a decade on an individual level, I think it's high time that we expand the conversation to include you. Let's talk about it. All right, so today I'm talking with Jerron Gilcrest and we are going to talk about the interpreter archetype. And one of the things specifically, we're gonna talk about his dress. And he has written a paper, which he is going to talk about and is gonna lead us into this really good conversation. So come on in.
JaRon:Hello. How you doing baby? I'm doing all right. So, yeah, I just graduated from Geck University this past May in the interpretations translations department, and my focus for my paper was titled What, where Black and Brown Interpreters. Perspective and experiences about professional attire and appearance? So with the research, it was a qualitative study. We got some really good stuff and I invite everyone to read the paper, but it really talks and sheds light on topics that usually are held in private circles with mm-hmm. With us. Right, right, right. You know, when we away from everybody. Yeah. So it was nice to put that into the light so everyone could, you know, get a different perspective on it.
keisha:So, I mean, tell me, tell me about this paper though. Like what did you find? I feel like you didn't find, it wasn't that necessarily that you found something, but that you put something on paper that we have been talking about for years.
JaRon:I. Yes, we've been talking about it, but I wanted to start off with the paper asking the interpreters, like where did you learn to dress for an assignment? Like mm-hmm. Where did you learn to dress? Mm-hmm. And all of them talked about growing up home, a lot of the teachings that they learned from home, from their parents, from their community, from Other interpreters that they saw. And having that, you know, as us as black people, we have a a unique way of expressing ourselves and we wanna make sure that when we step out into public, that we look presentable. That's always was a requirement. Right. So it even touches black to even the civil rights movement when they had these protests and marches Yeah. And things that they had all across the country. There was a, a dress requirement you had to wear your days vest. Yes. You know, and we, we hear that time and time again growing up, put your pants up strong with your hair, girl. You know, that's, that's too revealing. You know, you have all these things. So we take these things that we've learned from home and we use that especially as black people going into white spaces.
keisha:Absolutely. My grandmother used to say and makes me think of, my grandmother used say, we take pride in the way we look. Don't you walk out this house looking crazy.
JaRon:Exactly. Exactly. So that, that was really interesting to me. But then we got to the ITPs, the interpreter education programs, and that is when things started to get sticky. You know what I mean? I do because the professor pool in these ITPs. 90 something percent of the time you are having a white professor. Absolutely. And there's nothing wrong with white professors. However, when you have a variety of students or if you have a student of color, it's nice to sometimes have someone that looks like you, that understands that cultural competence, that's able to, you know, have that connection. But, But the ICP programs, they have this archetype of the interpreter. You have to wear all black, you have to strip everything down. bare boned, you cannot have anything that expresses anything of you. You have to just be stripped down. Right. And it comes to the idea of contrasting colors. Now the contrasting colors is, is, is a can of worms. So I don't know if we have enough time in the episode to dig. We got time. We got time. But baby, it's, it's, it's, it is one of which is, Us as black people or people of color. Like we know what looks good on us. We do, we know what colors work for us. Mm-hmm. And we're not a monolith, like there's a range of black. You know what I mean? Absolutely, absolutely. So that can change from everyone. So to put a one size fit all is not a good way to go about it. Absolutely. All the time. It's, it's, it's, it's a mold that they have that we would never be able to fit in. And it was, it wasn't designed for us to fit in. So how do we navigate that? So that comes with the The interpreter training programs, there's no diversity in their teaching pool. Right. And a lot of these new institutions, especially since George Floyd and the B l m movement, all of that, d e I platform, diversity, equity, and inclusion. But then we need to see that in your, in the classroom retention with the students. We need to see that in the leadership at the school. We need to see that in the professors. I need to see that in the things that you are providing as resources for us. I don't wanna look at a white interpreter as the, as the example all the time. Right. You know, they don't represent the interpreting community as a whole. Right, right. And they don't represent deaf people as a whole. Come on. All of that that you have on your website to be shown in your classrooms. So they have times the, some of the interpreters in the interviews talked about, they experienced the ips where professors didn't know what to do with them, or they felt like they were the other, you know? Mm-hmm. All alone, I, and I graduated from my program. I was the only black student in mine, you know? So certain questions that we have, they're not able to address it in a way that makes someone feels good. It feels like it's a weird feeling to have. So just highlighting that, that was another interesting topic that came along. Yeah. You
keisha:know, I was talking about the interpreter archetype and like it's so pervasive that it is white centric because right, there are no interpreter examples. Examples of interpreters that are diverse. There's no language diversity. Everybody doesn't use a s l the same. And what they show us is a white person using SEE, a white person using a s l and maybe someone who they have diagnosed as minimal language. Right? And so, and all of them invariably are white. Like, so how are we supposed to see ourselves if you don't diversify the space? But I think if we go back to dress like black is a contrasting color for white people, it's, it's hugely contrasting, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There is no rich diversity. I think the question is how do we fix
JaRon:that? Well, I think it comes with. The schools, you know, making intentional decisions to hire people of color to hire a, a diverse pool of professors and interpreters. I don't think a lot of them take the, that first step. They talk about it, you know, they publicize. In certain areas, but in action. I don't see that happening. There's no reason why. My I t P program, I had one professor by the grace of God, one black professor, but some students don't even have that, you know? And that was only for a semester. You know what I mean? So I think they have to really make those decisions and it's, it's gatekeeping, you know, it's really is gatekeeping. I feel like we have to go above and beyond even as an interpreter. Or even if you are in the academia lane, you have to go above and beyond to prove that you deserve that space. You know what I mean? Which other non-black brothers and sisters don't always have to do that in a lot of ways. That do. They don't.
keisha:They absolutely don't. They don't. But you said something and, and when we were talking, you said you had mentioned something about just this idea that all of this standards inform the DNS list.
JaRon:Well, yes, that's what, that's what they do. I wanted to touch upon, well, lemme touch on that and then I'll touch upon something else. I have a good example of that. So about, I wanna say it was, was it 2020? 2021 when the Biden? No. Was it the, I think it's, which, which administration It was okay. But the White House started having, it was the Biden administration when he first came into office. Trump right before him had the lawsuit where they had to hire black, they had to hire interpreters for the press conferences and everything. From Yeah. You know, they did the whole thing. Mm-hmm. So with that, I, I started working at the White House and you know me, I was excited getting this opportunity. So I get there to the White House and I see my team of interpreters, and of course I'm the only black interpreter. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, us having home values and things that we learned from home, I've come to the White House dressed to kill. I'm dressed to. I'm not playing with nobody. You know what I mean? Right. I'm dressed down. Yes. You know what I mean? I had on a navy blue suit, I had on a light pink shirt, you know, in a navy blue tie, you know, and I had on my Stacy Adams shoes, I'm ready for church. You know, I'm dressed. Yes. I'm the only black interpreter. And I see my other white colleagues and they're not dressed how I'm dressed. Okay. At the White House, when you go to interpret, they put you into a separate room in the executive office. Not his executive office, they have an office of a building called the executive office. Sure. And they put you into one of the rooms and it has a cameras, but there's no camera, man. Everything is done remotely, you know what I mean? The camera, the lights, everything is done re remotely from the tech people in a different room. So I do my thing, I interpret, and my team is not very friendly. They're not supportive. But that's besides the point. Besides the, but I get back home to get an email about JeRon, I don't think that was your best job. And especially your clothes that you had on, it was hard to see. I don't think it was contrasting enough. Do you think cuz I was working that whole week, that Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. That was Monday. Okay. Okay. But I'm sitting here like, okay, well lemme, lemme not take it personal, you know, let me switch it up. So the next day I had on a lighter blue suit. You know, it was still dark, but a lighter, a lighter blue. And I had on a white shirt and I had on, you know, a black tie or whatever. So I go interpret, you know, do my thing, come back home to another email and phone call. Yeah, that still didn't work for us. The way you look in the background and your clothes, it was hard to see your hands. It was hard to read. And, you know, mind you, I'm a certified interpreter like my colleague. Come on, come on. I see what you saying. Like, I deserve to be here too. You know, and, and if my skills were that in question, you invited me here, you know, but that's besides the point. Sure. So by this time I'm take it personal. Sure. So I go home and I have suits galo, so I put on a different suit, a different shirt, a different color, you know, so I get into, this is on Wednesday now. So I get into the White House and before we start anything I said I need to talk to, to the tech man, can you bring the tech man in? They broke the tech man in. I said, and he, the tech man was a black man. I said you know, I've been getting a lot of flat about my clothes and I looked on Twitter cuz they have a, a live feed on Twitter. And I looked online and I, and, and, and what struck me was that the lighting, the lighting was off. I could still see me, I didn't see what the problem was, but if I could approve anything, it would be the lighting. Sure. I said, Hey, you know, I'm a black man. Are we able to turn up the lights because the lights are already preset for the white interpreters that come and work there every day. Adjusted anything. Wow. So they brought the lights up, got back home. I got nothing but praises. I got nothing but good job. You were so much clear. But the heartache in the BS that I had to go through Monday, Tuesday, and partially Wednesday for that. But I think they used clothing as a way to. Said Nick at you, you know Right to mm-hmm. Break you down. Yeah. To make you give up if you don't. As a result of that, once they got that together, then the team there who was not supportive made up a whole thing and put me on a, on a d n s. It's a popular thing for a lot of black interpreters. We expect it, and oftentimes it happens. Sure.
keisha:Wow. Yeah. That's that's crazy. I think too, it's like, why didn't they notice? They don't, didn't even have the vision to see, oh, it's a lighting issue, like that's. Why would, I mean, like to me, I, I'm like, why is the onus being put on you for not having contrast? Because they are wearing solid black? Why isn't it almost is like, is there common
JaRon:sense? I don't get it all. I don't get it. Yeah. And then we also talked about when black interpreters wear black to an assignment, Sure. What does it look like? Cause I've heard both sides. I've heard you can't wear black. It's, it's contrasting to your skin. And who are you as a white person to tell me what's contrasting to my skin? I'm not the color black. You know, my skin is contrasting enough where you can still see my, my hands. Right? You understand my size, you know? And you have something, black people that I can wear black. There's nothing wrong with me wearing black. But then you get criticism, you know, it's, it's interesting discussion. Who was at that table? Inion. Who was?
keisha:Who was at that table? Nobody black for sure. Nobody black was
JaRon:at that table. I, I'm sure for sure. Right. But they set that up as a standard, and if you sway away from that, anything other than that, then you get
keisha:dinged right. And it's not professional. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah, it's good. I, it makes me think of Eileen Roberson, who's a dark skinned interpreter. She used to live in Maryland. She's now in Hawaii. I'm not sure if she's still doing the work anymore, but she's dark skinned, I mean chocolate, gorgeous, rich complexion. And I talked to her about this one time and she said, I look better in black. I don't wear anything else matter. She said, matter of fact, when I wear white, the contrast is too big. Mm-hmm. And I thought, right, right, right. Mm-hmm. But they tell us, and I was told, don't wear black because you know you're black Like me being a black person somehow means I'm the color black. And it doesn't contrast my skin. It don't, the math, it is not mathing
JaRon:it. Don't add up. I. And I didn't go to an I T P, like starting out like I'm a coda, so I just came out and started working and I didn't get those secret policy secret rules that they give you guys, and I came out into the field and I'm getting criticized. I didn't understand where it was coming from, so it took a while for me to Oh, understand. And this is the game, like this is because I, I feel this is just me, my lens of the world. It becomes them and y'all. Right. Right. You know what I mean? We're gonna wear our black uhhuh, like this is our uniform and y'all figure it out, but you can't cross this line. Like, sure, this is our. That's kind of how it feels. Sure.
keisha:I think it's, it's like I think we are so used to othering people in this country that, that when we get into the workplace, it's like, okay, so we should have diversity, but how do we create separation? How do we subconsciously, cuz maybe it's not conscious. Maybe let's give you the white people the benefit of that. Maybe they're not actually thinking about it, but they are othering, they're using professional standards, right? In air quotes to other people. To say you aren't qualified to be in this space. That is like something to say.
JaRon:It's something to say. That is something to say. You surprised the stuff that people go through and what they experience out here working in the field as a black and brown interpreter. Like, I would
keisha:not be surprised. I, I, matter of fact, I'm trying to platform it. Let's talk about it because what on earth,
JaRon:what on earth is, is it about it? I think it comes, well there, there's. Another thing that we talked about in the paper, there's a generational shift happening right now. Sure. In field, there are a lot of seasoned interpreters that have been in the game 15, 25 years plus that when they started interpreting, they had to move a certain way. There was no BLM that George Floyd was still going about his everyday life. We didn't have a lot of these social things in our country that has sparked this new awareness, so, mm-hmm. Oftentimes you had to dress a certain way. You had to, you still have to code switch. But it was a certain way that a lot of older interpreters had to move to for success in the field. Right. And I think a lot of the younger interpreters, the millennials and younger have come to the field and it's like, Hey, why are we still going through that? Why are we still doing that? Like, what's most important? Do you understand what I'm saying? Do you understand that you, are you understanding the message? Am I clear? Am I clear? Like that's the point. And it was one older interpreter in my paper who's a black woman in her. She didn't say her age, but she's 50 plus. That's what she put on the survey. She's 50 and or up, you know, and she's been interpreting for years. Sure. And she loves braids. You know how we wear braids, right? Yes. And baby, she said she was only able to wear braids when it was vacation time. Wow. When she was away from work because she knew that if she took her black ass in that courthouse to the court interpreter, most of the time into that courtroom, she would not be able to work. Wow. She would be on that do not send list. And it was not until the Crown Act that was a new law signed with the 20 15, 20 18 something somewhere around there. Recent, recent mm-hmm. Crown Act where, you know, it, it, it gave the license to wear your natural hair, whatever your culture is, or you have a, whatever garment you wanna wear that represents you and your culture, you know, you can't be critic, you can't be penalized for that. Sure. So it wasn't until that law that she began to wear braids at 50 something years old to work. But our colleagues coming here with Mohawks, With zigzags and purple and green hair and spikes and what we, if we wanna wear a earring that has a, a amp on it or an African shaped earring or a hair wrap or wear our braids, we can't do that. Right? But y'all can do that, right? And oftentimes child skills are not there. It's mediocre, but they could praise for being mediocre. Sure. But us, we have to be exceptional in exceptional voices. Right. Exceptional heads up then you have to look a certain way. I do. Yeah. They don't have to
keisha:do all that. Right. And I don't know if they even know that this is, that is a real feeling and it has been passed down to us. We have to be way better to be beat the bare
JaRon:minimum. To be equal. Absolutely better to be equal you to be better than good. You gotta to be better than good. Than good. Absolutely. To be better than good. And I learned that from my mother. I learned that from my mother and, and my family. The McCaskill, I'll go ahead and say it. The McCaskill's, Uhhuh baby.
keisha:I have
JaRon:seen how they navigated their way through Galludet University. They've been there since the seventies and the eighties. Sure. And they have worked. They got to the top, but the BS that they had to endure with a smile. With a smile dressed to the nines, they had to in internalize so much to get ahead and play their game. Mm-hmm. You, so I learned that from them. And that's the approach that I use when I go out into these interpreting spaces, you know? Sure. But you do, you have to be exceptional to be respected. Absolutely. Yeah. I can remember I went
keisha:to this job, I will never forget it, a conference. The, it was a conference job and the girl who deemed herself the coordinator, white woman, she was wearing a t-shirt and they were kind of like joggers, more like hospital pants. They were hospital pants. She was wearing a t-shirt, hospital pants, black shoe, and a blazer, baby. And a blazer. Right. And so it, it, it, it elevated all of these things and I will never forget it because when I got to the job, she asked me why I was qualified to be there.
JaRon:Oh, oh my God.
keisha:She said, she said, why are you qualified to be here? I couldn't even believe it. Then she said, what are your credentials? Like, like, like, why am I wasn't clear what's
JaRon:what.
keisha:She ran down her whole 10, 11 year history of interpreting. Mm-hmm. That's what they do. And she's wearing a t-shirt and hospital pants
JaRon:dressed like come to work. It's, it's
keisha:unbelievable. The audacity
JaRon:have circle seats in an empty stadium. Like I don't understand that. But not to like play like that knickknack game, but it, you have to recognize that there's an imbalance. Sure. You know, of the expectations. Yeah. Of how we have to come into a space, you know what I mean? And if you wanna be successful in this field, you have to play this game, which we should not have to play. Right. You know what I mean? I think that us as black and brown interpreters know what looks good on us. Of course, on both sides you have renegades that's gonna do what they wanna do. That doesn't, sure, you know, follow, but the standard. But overall, people know what looks good on them, so. I just wanna have more attention shared on that because it really has done a lot to some interpreters internally and how they show up in this space. Sure. And you know, sure. People
keisha:show up with a lot of anxiety. Like, I don't wanna be dns, I don't wanna be critiqued to criticize because this doesn't contrast enough. I people, people do show up like that. They do. Yeah, but it's called trauma.
JaRon:It affects who you wanna work with. It does. It affects if you even wanna interpret anymore. That's why some interpreters stay in church. It's a safe space. Yeah. I have my deaf community. They understand me. I don't have to worry about all of the excess stuff that comes out with the freelance interpreting. I can be in my safe space or interpret it in, not necessarily church, but other spaces that you feel safe. You know what I mean? I'm like,
keisha:I think if we, even if we even go back to the hair for a minute, because I'm just thinking about she wasn't, she's trying to wear a natural hairstyle. Like your comparison, she's just wearing her just a natural black look. Braid in comparison to pink. Right. The, that. It's so imbalanced. It's so imbalanced. And sometimes it, you're right, we want to go into these places that are safe so that we can safely show up as ourselves. Right. Like, and I should be able to do that in any space
JaRon:you should, but oftentimes people conform. Yeah, they conform for success. Right. You know what I mean? If you be successful in this space, bitch is what I gotta do. That's what I gotta do, bitch. I gotta wear this color. I got, I can't, I gotta sign it in a box. I have to make sure I smile enough to not make them think that I'm upset and they feel intimidated. So let me smile and it's a fake smile. Let me move. You know what I mean? You have to, you have to play the game. Sure. It's unfair. So what
keisha:else did you find? Did you find anything else? Just like from the, the interviews that you did, like how did you conduct your
JaRon:research? Well, yeah, what I did was I did two focus groups. It was a total of 10 participants, so I really invite you guys to read the paper cuz it's so much here. But yeah, so that's how we did. So we had just had a, a natural conversation. It lasted two hours each. So once I did the focus group interviews, I transcribed everything and then I went through and I made codes of things that came up repeatedly or patterns or interesting topics that other people, you know, Chimed in on, and we came up with codes and topics. So that's how that went. So we gonna place the link somewhere so you guys Yeah, we gonna place it somewhere. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's free.
keisha:So, but, but, but is there anything that you found that you, that we haven't talked about as of yet?
JaRon:Well, we really touched everything. We talked about the generational shift in the field. We talked about wearing black. We talked about us having to be better than good. We talked about having safe spaces being comfortable to work and show up in. We talked about the double standards that they have, the double standards in the field as far as Sure how we show up our attire, our professional appearance. And we talked about where we learned to dress at home, you know, your family, your community. Mm-hmm. And in the interpreter training program experience and how that plays a huge role. So that was basically a lot of the, the things that came up in the discussions, but inside of the paper you have more of their words verbatim of what some of the participants said. So when you get some free time, check it out. Yeah, absolutely.
keisha:You know what I'm also thinking about? I'm gonna just think about this, that, but there is a completely different culture that when we show up as black people, when we come into ITPs, I will never forget, and this is not necessarily on dress, but it's just about culture. Right. I remember when I got to my I T P and we were, they wanted us to call them by their first name, and I was like,
JaRon:who? Yeah. Yeah. No. Who, who,
keisha:who called by their first name. Yeah. And, and, and then our our department chair. His name was Lawrence, and they wanted us to, to call him Lawrence. Who, who's called him Lawrence. And so for the first year of my program, I didn't call anybody anything. I didn't call anybody anything. Certainly not in English. Not in English, because like culturally, you're right, we bring what we were taught at home and when, but at home is sir and no sir. Yes sir. Ma'am. No ma'am. Yes ma'am. Ma'am, that's. You don't call anybody. You look at somebody, you see their age and you say, okay, miss, what's your name?
JaRon:Okay. Got it. Mm-hmm. That's what its my age. Those snitch have no license to call me by my first name, have no license. That's how we grew up. Yeah. You have to show that like I got popped in them out. Same. Same.
keisha:Who are you talking to like that? Exactly. So it's such a culture shift and we do bring our full selves and then it's like, You know, sometimes our full selves just don't fit. Because, because the system is built to exclude, right? It's, it's, it's built to include a specific kind of self, right? Mm-hmm. And so like, I think it's important to have a conversation about how we come into a space and how we navigate that space, but also like how we build out the space so that the newer interpreters know what to do. Somebody had just asked me the other day like, what am I supposed to wear to work? You know, what am I supposed to wear to work? And I think part of that is because, He has his upbringing, you know, from growing home, but like when you are looking around the field, it's like, I, I don't wanna wear that. Mm-hmm. So how? Mm-hmm. So, so he's stuck in the middle, like, how do I make a decision on what's appropriate to wear, to work when he knows he knows what to wear? But it's not accepted in air.
JaRon:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I was just about to say that. You hit it right on the nail. That's, that's, that's interesting. That's so interesting. I get a lot of people coming up to me asking me the same thing about what to wear. Is this appropriate for this job or that? I just try to give what I can. But I will say to me, I think a lot of the younger interpreters are like, just don't care. Like don't care in a good way. It's like, I'm not accepting what you're threading over here. I'm in my zen. I'm vibing. I, I know I look good. I know my hands are clear. I'm not accepting that, I'm not going to tolerate that. I'm not, I don't need that energy. So they block it. You know what I mean? I've noticed that the younger interpreters, other interpreters, even, even me, myself too, I'm kind of in the middle cuz I had to play the game too, to the point I said, I don't give up anymore. You know what I mean? Yeah. But I feel like the younger intern get it right away. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, what's the, what's the holdup? Like, why, why does it take 20 years for stuff to change, 30 years for, for something to change? It's simple as that.
keisha:Sure. Yeah. We, I, I was definitely, my mom would say, Keisha, you gotta play the game. She'd say it all the time. She will say it to me today, Keisha, you gotta play the game. And here's the thing about the young interpreters, which I appreciate, but here's what I, I also wanna say is have the skill I. If you going, if you going rebel, if you going show up, wanna show up as your authentic self and you wanna push some boundaries mm-hmm. Have the skill, right? Mm-hmm. Like, there are people who are showing, they don't have the skill, they don't have the things that are necessary to do the job effectively. And I don't, I'm not saying that as a, as somebody, I need you to represent me. I'm just saying like, baby, you setting yourself up for failure because your skills aren't there. Your skills aren't there, and you showing up as your authentic self and people already don't wanna accept that. Absolutely. Like you belong on a DNS list, right? And not because I think so, but that's exactly where they're gonna put you. Cuz you don't have the stuff to back, you don't have the chops to back it up.
JaRon:Or, and they're not gonna give them the same latitude as they give another interpreter with the same skillset. Absolutely. They will get nurtured. They will be. Absolutely. Absolutely. They'll be guided. Absolutely. You'll be sent on the D Ns, thank you C five nights. You know what I mean? Right. So that's a part. Playing the game too. Yeah. Having that balance. So you can't stick your chest out and if your skills are not there, and it shouldn't be like that, but unfortunately that's the game that we play. You have to be, it's, you have to be accept, you have to exceptional. You have to be so good that they can't, they wanna try to anyway, but so good where they can't question your skills. I, I agree. You know, like, you know what I mean? You have to be that good and you have to be intentional to get to a place where, That happens, you know? Sure. I think
keisha:also there has to be a way to, and I, I think this is a conversation, a larger, much larger conversation that we're not gonna have here today, but there has to be a way to address these preferred lists in these DNS lists, because they foster racism and oppression,
JaRon:right? Yes, they do. But you have to understand it is, Gatekeepers. It's someone at a desk, like they can complain about the darnest thing. I had one lady complain, put me on a d n s list at I wouldn't even say what the place is. Confidentiality. In a government office in DC I had on d burnt orange pants and a black polo. You know, I'm dressed, you know, I, I like labels, I like nice things, you know. No one dressed. And your pants were too loud for me. I didn't, I I didn't, they, the client said they didn't like your pants. They were too loud. It was a distraction, and they asked that you not come back. Well, one. Why? Why is that such an issue? The pants being burnt orange, like was it really that distraction? You have a ox in in plaid, in green eyelashes? I mean green eyeshadow, but I'm a distraction. But two, if it was a distraction so bad, did you give me an opportunity to
keisha:fix it? Correct it. Come on.
JaRon:Like, do I not deserve that? They don't even give you that. That's what I'm talking about. They don't give you the latitude. So your black ass go right on this list with the other black and brown interpreters. So we don't want y'all, we want Sally, we want Juniper. We want Sarah and Becky and Tom. Tom comes sometime too. We want them. Yeah. Yep. Lakeisha, Jaron LaRhonda and, and Tony Uhuh. We're not doing that in here no more. No, we're not Uhuh. No. That's how you, you find that time and time again. We do. So, yeah. So I even asked like throughout the year can we circle back on this? Am I able to accept jobs there anymore? Oh, they, they, they still prefer you not to come. Right? Same thing happened at the White House. They said that you didn't accept feedback well and your clothing and this and that, and they just would prefer you not to come back. They have a preferred list of interpreters that they want to choose. Wild, like they arbitrary, like it's so arbitrary. Wow. It's so arbitrary. It happens at all the big interpreting agencies. It happens all the
keisha:time. Yeah, it happens all the time. And, and here's the other thing, and, and since we don't talk about being at the table, lots of us are not at those tables either, right? Mm-hmm. So how do we, I don't wanna be at them tables neither. I ain't gonna hold you. I'm not Those kinda politics. I made my own table. Let's
JaRon:create our own table. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I created my own table. I created my agency, interpret this. During 2020 because lemme tell you what happened during 2020. Covid hit, right? Covid hit and we were virtual. Now everybody was unsure what was happening. Jobs were coming and going. We weren't sure. Then right around the same time, black Lives Matter happened, B LM happened. So I got the jobs came and go. It was kind of, you know, Unsure and then got started getting all these requests for black interpreters. Black interpreters. Black interpreters. Black interpreters. And you know, I was one of, maybe one of few interpreters that some of these agencies had, so they kept coming to me, but y'all was just about to fire me because y'all couldn't afford it, cuz of Covid, y'all couldn't do this, y'all couldn't do that. Complaints and da, da da. So I dropped them, let go all those agencies. Boom, boom, boom. And I created my own space and I brought other black and brown interpreters in Cuz you're not about to tokenize me. Ooh. You're not about to tokenize me. Cause you need a black face to show and represent your a when you don't hire or black and brown interpreters all year round. So for Black History month, I'm not interpreting for you. Right. If we have not had a relationship all year round. Right. It's only I know who I know who hires me all year round and I know who doesn't. Yeah. And when that time comes around for whatever it is, I'm not, I'm not doing it right. I even had a lady. Recently wanted me to do a, another project coming up, and historically the interpreters have been all white. And she was like, yeah, I'll tell you to be honest, Ron, I heard a lot about you and we, we need, we need a black interpreter. We need a black interpreter. It's like, I want you to do it. Okay, well, fine. I went up to be a part of it, but this is my rate. Yeah, I, I'm, I don't think. Well, how are you going to come seek me out? Right, right, right, right. You haven't asked me anything for, for the whole 10 years I've been interpreting. Yeah. And then you asked that you don't wanna pay my rate at the bare minimum. Yeah, but we, we we're paying for your flight in your hotel. Well, girl, you supposed to, you think I'm paying for it. You think I'm flying myself out there to work for you in front of a, a space where I will be the minority and uncomfortable. Sure girl. No, I won't do it. Find somebody else to do it. Give somebody else to do it. So there are, but there are some agencies, some white-owned agencies and some white allies that understand it, that get it. They create space. They hire me all year round. Like the Kennedy Center is a great one. Like they have relationships with all different types of interpreters. It's come one come. Oh, do you have the skills? Do you know the play? Yeah, the skills. Do you know the play the music good, but come on. You know what I mean? So like, it's some, in some allies, some teams, you know, you team with, they get it. They speak and advocate and call stuff out. It needs be, you know, so we do have that. So I'm grateful for that, but I will everybody on the same page. Can we all just get along baby? I'm tired. Yes. That makes. It's, it's exhausting.
keisha:You get burned up. It's exhausting. Yeah, it's exhausting. You really do, especially with the tokenizing, like that thing right there is so rampant and they don't even know that they're tokenized. They don't know that they keep picking you, oh, we need to black interpreter. Ooh, they got the skill. They don't understand really the, the whole issue with tokenization. It's like, can I be the full spectrum of who I am? I wanna show up authentically as myself all the time, and I'm qualified a lot more often than you use me. And you choose me. Mm-hmm. I'm qualified. Right? And so like, put me on the schedule, put me in coach, put me on the schedule, put
JaRon:me in coach, put me on the schedule. Absolutely. They only pull you when, when it's something in your, but that's another thing too. I think that's what makes Black interpreters a little bit more versatile than white interpreters. This is just my lens. In the world. World. So black interpreters, we have to go interpret in a variety of spaces. I done done bar mitzvahs, honey, like I don't know nothing about no bar mitzvah. I done everything from courtroom. I done done everything, white spaces. I wanna be good. Sure. Interpreters stay in their box. Right? They stay in their community. They don't go over here, they don't come over there with them. They don't. We stay right here. So when the rare time that it does come up, they're awkward. Cause they don't have, they can't even scratch the surface. Right? Cause they haven't pasted themselves in these different spaces. Right. Where us as we can code switch. You know, you wanna keep your I think AMI said it. You wanna. You wanna keep your allegiance to your community, but you wanna be able to work amongst. The masses, you know what I mean? Absolutely. Yeah. Do this, you know what I'm, but a lot of white interpreters don't do that. Right. So they don't know the black national anthem, honey. They can't do certain artists that come. You know what I mean? We had, we had a con, I wouldn't even say cuz we had a concert recently. Okay. And the team was white. They were just there for the, a certain part. Okay, good. So, but working, feeding, and she's stuck, she's frozen, like doesn't know. And I'm like, that's the whole point. You need to be, be in these, did you listen to the music before you got here? Right. Did you, did you, did you? You know what I mean? Yeah. But they don't place themselves in one position. They stick to what they know.
keisha:Yeah. And we have been code switching our whole lives. Right. We've been doing this
JaRon:since we were babies.
keisha:The womb code
JaRon:switching. In code switching also. That's another discussion. But for black and brown interpreters trying to pass the certification. Ooh. You have to code switch. You have to. You have to code switch. Code switch. Unfortunately, I, I don't, I think it's bs. You should do that. I think it's bs. Yeah. But if you want to pass that test, baby, let tell you what you have to do. You're gonna have to code switch, you have to sign in this box. You have to do certain things a certain way. You have to smile. Yeah. You ex, you know. Baby. I could write a whole book about that. And it's B cutes. It's B. Keep it cute, but it's bs. It is. You know what I mean? Yeah, it is. It is. But hopefully
keisha:there are more of us at that table too, right? Like who was at that table? So we ain't got a code switch so hard, right? Like,
JaRon:come on. Okay. I'm tired, I'm.
keisha:All right. Well, thank you so much for coming. I really enjoyed this conversation.
JaRon:That was a good time. Me too. I know I'm all over the place, girl, but you know, we'll be all right. It was good. It was
keisha:great. I love a year. This has been, if I'm honest, I'm your host, Keisha Osborne, and this is a place where we have hard conversations. Until next time.
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