If I'm Honest with keisha osborne
If I'm Honest with keisha osborne
Mindful Pre-Conferencing: Considerations about Race
All right, let's try this again. Welcome to From the Honest. On today's episode, I am talking with Sandra Roeke and she is one of my good friends and colleagues. We actually went to the same ITP. Um, and today we're talking about pre conferencing. We had a job, uh, actually it was two jobs that came up and it was a predominantly black space and it was a little sticky because Sandra White. Make her white. And so, um, I think it was really important to talk about how we navigated the space of her being in a predominantly Black space in her white body, and then how she communicated that with me, but also what pre conferencing in general can look like, uh, that is effective and thoughtful and considerate. Do you want to say anything else about yourself?
Sandra:I mean, I think for identifying purposes for anybody who's wondering, I do identify as cis, het, and white. And I realize that that puts me as a part of the larger minority in many categories. And I recognize that that carries a lot of privilege and that carries some additional work and thought and intention when it comes to things like navigating a predominantly black space as a cis, het, white interpreter.
keisha:Yeah, yeah. So, Let's go back to the day. It was like September 8th of 2023, so it was a while ago. Um, and, right, you're navigating these identities in the, in the majority, and, uh, we are assigned, kind of last minute, to two classes that are offered from the Center of Black Deaf Studies, I think.
Speaker 3:Yes.
keisha:Um, I can't remember the name of those classes, but it doesn't matter. Uh, the job comes in and in the morning I am busy. Like I, I have a, a bootcamp that I'm doing. I have a meeting. And so you reach out to me and say, Hey, I see this job. I see it. I see it. I'm white girl. I see it. Um, I'd love to figure out how we navigate this space together. Um, but I think you'll probably tell your side of like what you were thinking about when you reached out to me a bit better than what I'm doing right now.
Sandra:Yeah, I think that For me, receiving an assignment that was a predominantly Black space and had to do with Black language, Black culture, understanding that that kind of content would need to move through my body, there was several feelings that came up for me initially. and it was how do I equitably access this space? Should I be here at all or should I push back really hard on the scheduling entity and let them know that this is not fair and or appropriate? Is this my moment to advocate? I'm not 100 percent sure and I don't want to make a quick and fast decision based off of the limited information that I have. Right. So let me start the work because it is incumbent upon me as a white person stepping into this space. And so for me, the first step in that process is to information gather and to name the weird, name the uncomfortable thing in the room. Let me first name to my team that I recognize I'm a white woman navigating a space that we're both walking into with limited information.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:Let me tell you now I'm seeking more information. I have the time, I have the space, and it feels incumbent upon me to be able to do that.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:I wanted to name it with you, and then I sought out the ongoing team interpreters to understand, is it fair and appropriate to be in this space? And while I'm not seeking all validation from two Black interpreters that it is okay for me to exist in this space. What I am doing is trying to information gather enough for me to make my own professional decision to also ensure that at least a few people validate that I, that they would feel comfortable with me in this space. And we can name it to the class if that is, we can, name ideas, and we can talk through what this would look like, but I realize how it can feel and how it can look in a vacuum without that information. Being able to then step through and get information from the ongoing teams and say, yes, this is potentially a space that you could navigate, and here's all of the information about the class that I can give you. Okay, this feels like content I could navigate, especially with an interpreter of color, if you feel comfortable supporting me. Again, wanting to make sure that that's not something that I'm putting an additional burden on a Black interpreter in that space to think, well, not only is this a new class for me, not only is this different content for me, not only is this as a person that we have the luxury of working together and have a long history, but we don't work together often.
keisha:Right.
Sandra:And so wanting to make sure that we at least prepared ourselves with all the information possible before we walked into the space felt like a really big value to me.
keisha:Yeah. Yeah. I remember seeing the jobs come through and being like, why is Sandra on this job? Like, I, I, I remember that immediately. And I was also like, I don't have the capacity, but I also am not really used to pushing back. So I was grateful when you reached out and you were like, I'm not sure, um, because really it challenged my automatic thought of you don't belong here, right? And I, I think That's probably a safe bet in a lot of situations. It's probably a safe bet. It was probably a safe bet in this situation especially because there are lots of black and brown interpreters who work at this agency, right? There are lots of people who could have been staffed on this job. So I think it was a safe bet and Right? There is no one size fits all. And so I appreciate it being in a space where I'm challenged to think, all right, let's just, let's, let's let her do the information gathering and see what, um, the ongoing interpreter says. And she essentially says, well, first she's, first she gives us like the rundown of the class and like what it looks like. And you had asked her like, I'm a white person and I understand the impact, my body and language coming through my body can have on the situation, on the environment, in that space. Is it okay for me to be here? Um, and, uh, what she said was like, oh, it's a really chill class and, you know, the consumer is really cool. And you were kind of like, okay, so let's bring it on back. I'm a white girl. Do I get, should, is it okay for me to be in this space? Or should I say, I need you to replace me. I need to be replaced. Um, and it was great that in the initial conversation, because the first conversation before we even reached out to, um, The ongoing interpreter is we reached out, you reached out to GIS. Yes. They've been named. So, it is, it is going to stay. Um, you've reached out to GIS and GIS essentially says, uh, Um, and what you say to GIS is, If I am not a good fit for this, Uh, I'm going to ask you to have a plan B, like I'm okay to information gather, but be clear. You need a plan B right now. Um, and that is like, I mean, when I, when I'm looking at it today, uh, just kind of reviewing the conversation that we had, I was like, man, that was some firm language, right? You have clearly communicated that this is a major concern. And they say, we understand where you're coming from, we'll connect you with the ongoing interpreter. And so, it was kind of a great way of kind of seeing that conversation, kind of roll out. But what did you feel like when, when you're reflecting on the conversation with the ongoing interpreter, what did you feel about that?
Sandra:I, I felt, all information is good information. So understanding that it is a very chill class and understanding that Maybe there aren't a lot of deep things that come up in the class. Maybe it is superficial to a certain degree, does give a certain level of safety and a certain level of me feeling more confident to step into the space. So I was happy to receive any and all information that she could possibly give me. But I also really, really wanted, I was, I really wanted to create an opportunity to talk about the thing. It's, And this, any white interpreter should have a little bit of trepidation if they are assigned to those things immediately, right? That the immediate feeling should be, is this fair and appropriate? And is this my moment to really step forward in my allyship? Because you have to understand that there's competing, competing values in place, right? A scheduling team and a scheduling office ultimately wants to provide fill their jobs.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:Want to provide interpreting services, and that is the predominant thought that they're leading with. And so, I am better than nothing is the idea. Right. And it sparks a deeper question. Is that, is that true? Is that fair? Is that real? Could they have, Cleared the rest of your schedule and you've been willing to do that time slot solo rather than me existing in that space. What other creative options do we have if in fact there are no other black and brown interpreters available? This is not a decision, this is a standard decision.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Sandra:Not the only decision and I like to remind scheduling teams of that way ahead of the game, right? An opportunity to not I walked into the space. Oh, this feels wrong Now i'm letting gis know and i'm leaving the interpreter of color in a lurch. That's not fair and appropriate allyship. That's not The work that's incumbent upon white interpreters when working in this space. It is incumbent upon me to get ahead of this early in the game and to tell, uh, warn everybody. Hey, interpreter. Hey, team. Hey, scheduling office. This is, this is happening. And I will recuse myself if it's fair and appropriate.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Sandra:Need to have another plan in place to be able to rectify this. That's, that's allyship. And it's, it's at its most base form. I want to provide excellent access. I want the deaf person The deaf people, the hearing people, whoever it is that needs access in the room to have excellent access. But it doesn't always mean that I'm a good enough fit or that I am better than nothing. There are options.
keisha:Yeah. Um, I, I want to name the classes that I found them in my notes. Um, it's Black ASL and Black Deaf History. So like, like, I think when you think about just language, right? Like, and I think we talked about this in the episodes about the N word. It's like language that's coming through a white body is just very different than it is when it comes to the black body. Like the considerations really were. necessary and poignant and appropriate, but there are also situations, um, that I think that we have to be reflective of, um, that aren't as kind of in your face, like, Ooh, I don't know if I should be, you know, in this space. Um, and so I'd ask you, like, how do you make the determination to say, I probably need to have a pre conferencing conversation about a space that I may not should be in.
Sandra:Yeah, I think that part of my professional practice and part of the commitment I have in my professional work, and even in my personal life, it has benefit is anytime something feels icky in my body, something immediately feels, gives me pause. Something immediately feels weird internally about what's coming in message wise. I don't want to hold that in a vacuum.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:And I want to share that with other people and I want to do it in a way that feels safe and is comfortable for everybody in the room. But if I'm feeling weird, I have found in my years of experience that usually someone else feels a little bit odd about it as well. And I want to name it. I want to name it in a way that gets ahead of the problem rather than us showing up in a space. You've made a series of assumptions about why I'm here or whether I've made, whether I've done any work or whether, you know what I mean, whether I feel entitled in the space or whatever it is, right? I want to get ahead of those perceptions and I want to get ahead of expectations. I want to manage. What we can both expect going in. So when I have that sense of weirdness inside my body, regardless of whether it's a professional or personal practice, I really try to name that first. This is feeling weird for me. Anchor me in reality if I'm wrong, if I'm way off base, then maybe that's me and I'll go back and I'll really Assess why that felt weird for me or all you're feeling the same way. Okay. Let's talk about it. What makes it weird for you? Help me understand why it feels weird from your side. Here's why it feels weird for me. It's uncomfortable for me. And I think that becomes a really strong foundation for starting that conversation in a safe way, rather than Finding yourself in a situation where now you're both uncomfortable or there's a lot of big feelings that now have to be managed. You can handle that ahead of time in moments like pre conferencing or moments like looking ahead to your jobs and prepping for things. I think that it saves a lot of bandwidth for both people in the, or for everyone in the long run.
keisha:Yeah, I appreciate your thought process on the issue because I remember seeing the jobs come through and I also did not have the capacity and so you had said in the debriefing of the pre briefing, because we ended up not doing the jobs, they were both cancelled, but you had said like you didn't need or want me to do this additional labor. Uh, and I, I, I didn't even have the capacity to think about all the implications, right? Like I just got to get through the day. And it wasn't one of those exhausting days. I just had things back to back. Um, and so, I had, I was really grateful that you were considerate and then you did all the labor of reaching out to all the people, right? You CC'd me, made sure that I was still included in the conversation, but you carried that. Um, and so like, was that part of your consideration or were you like, I'm not feeling like, I need to do this for me?
Sandra:I think that, I think it was, it was both, right? I need, I needed to do this for me, but I also wanted to make sure every felt, everyone felt included in the conversation as well. As we worked through those feelings of, is this fair? Is this appropriate? Is this what access should look like? I think that it was, I had the additional bandwidth that day. And if I didn't, that would also be a part of my ick, right? I, I'm understanding that I'm navigating a space that I may not be appropriate for. I also understand I have really limited bandwidth today.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:I can't, and I think I would have also shared that with you if that was a part of my considerations, right? That day I happen to have the extra time, space, and availability, and it's, it's, it's It should not be, and in my professional practice, will never be the entire work of the Black interpreter
Speaker 3:to make
Sandra:those decisions, to qualify those decisions, to do that additional work, to whatever it is. It's not always the ongoing Black interpreter's responsibility in that space to look ahead as to who is subbing and be like, Oh, that's a white interpreter. I'm going to have to prep them. I'm going to have to vet them. That's not fair. It's not appropriate. It's a part of my professional practice as well, and I need to make sure it feels fair and balanced. And if I don't have the bandwidth, that's a very real and human thing, but I would name that as well as a part of the conversation is that I don't have the bandwidth today for this. Maybe it is fair and appropriate that you go ahead and just take me off the assignment because I don't have the ability to prep or engage in these further conversations. So let me go ahead and recuse myself now.
keisha:Yeah, I really, I, I fuck with this real heavy because I feel like, I feel like that is the labor, right? Like if I would have had the time and the capacity to engage you on this, it would have been a problem and not necessarily interactionally, but like internally it would have been a problem if I would have said, had to say to you, Hey, what you doing on this job? Like, I think, and there's so many situations where. Black and brown people have to say, go home. We have to do the labor and then there's the, and then sometimes in the defense mechanism, it's like, why? Like, you know, I'm providing access, but now I have to do the labor of explaining to you why you aren't the best fit or even engage in a conversation to determine that. Um, and. That happens more often than not. I was thinking about, when we were kind of prepping for this, I was thinking about, uh, the assignment that I mentioned, uh, last season, which was, um, when I was at that conference and we had these, it was a QTPOC space. There were probably 20 interpreters in the room, um, eight of them were white. Uh, and when the organizers were asked if they wanted white bodies in the space and they told us to get out, right, they were very aggressive with that. The white interpreters were up in arms. Like they were pissed. They were like, you know, this is my job. Like I'm here to provide access. And, you know, right, but like the access that you're going to provide causes harm in this space that is, cherished and sacred and intentionally set aside for a specific marginalized community with, you know, different intersections of identity that are also marginalized. Um, and so when we were talking about that, you were talking about. just kind of a larger concept of what white interpreters need to be considering. So could you talk about that?
Sandra:Yeah, it's, it's a yes and situation for me, right? You can't consider things in a vacuum and do I walk into every space with the idea of My goal is to provide excellent access, to provide equitable access for Deaf people, to be in the space to do that. Yes, do Deaf people always deserve equitable access? A hundred percent. But again, it is one of those things that you can't consider access in a vacuum. You have to consider the entire space. And so, while it is not just my decision, it is not just the people who run the space's decision, it is a group decision. And for me, I think that's where I try to remind people of those things. So, right, if you're looking through a queer lens and you're in a queer space, then most things are going to feel, feel queer related or a trans space or whatever it is. And so that's the moment that I know it's incumbent upon me as a deaf ally and as someone who supports access to say, hey, Just as a reminder, you have deaf people in the space. If it were only white interpreters in this moment, then I engage in a deeper conversation of how would you like to address this? Because when I leave the space, you've now left a really valued community member without access to the very real and important things that you have to say.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:And I think that disenfranchising your community members is not necessarily fair.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:So How do we make this happen? I can offer ideas on. I don't have to exist in the space, maybe I come in a virtual capacity. Maybe my team steps outside and calls the agency and says, we need somebody queer. We need somebody trans. We need somebody right now. Let's start, let's get on the horn. Let's start utilizing our network. Let's have that larger conversation and remind them that yes, access is still important. At the end of the day, there were 12 other interpreters, and if you all are willing to take on that space, then quite honestly, the check cashes either way,
Speaker 3:right?
Sandra:And I'm happy to stay. It's, it's much less about my ego with that. Access is happening. I don't need to exist in this space. Can I still be of support in some capacity? Let me know.
keisha:Sure.
Sandra:Whether that means, hey, can I provide you a lunch break in a safer breakout session? Can I, can I still be of support in some capacity to the team? If not, then let me remove myself completely because then you're just causing the same amount of harm or worse harm by trying to insist that you need to provide access. And I think that is where we have to step back and ask ourselves, is this about our ego? Is this about one, only one lens that we're willing to look through? And not consider all of the other lenses is this we are exist. We are used to existing with a level of privilege that we don't like being told. No, or we don't like to be told that we shouldn't exist in this space. I think it becomes a larger question of unpacking some of that privilege. It becomes a question of if access is happening, why am I fighting this? I think it becomes a larger decision of layered. Conversations that should happen, but if that happens as a group decision, it's not just me. It's not just one organizer. It's not just one person on the team. Then I think that it should be embraced with humility and recognizing that maybe in future assignments or I go back to the agency and say, Hey, if you get future requests for this. Cis-het white interpreters are not the ones.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:It's not, you need to vet differently. You need, is it a moment that I can then take to educate other people and prepare better in the future so that we don't have to face this situation again.
keisha:Yeah. I, I, I love this because I think sometimes where we are in this, like, ally to the deaf community, it's at the expense of, our allyship to the Black community. So, right, you become pro Deaf people and then a little bit racist, right? Or a little bit something else, right? A little bit something else because you don't have an intersectional approach to the work. Uh, and I think you have to have an intersectional approach to the work. You have to think about all the layers of what people come and bring to the table, Because you don't want to provide them access and also oppress them as a black or brown person, as a trans person, as a something other person, because you aren't allowing them to exist in their full selves in their humanity. So yeah, I think, and this is what, and I want to be careful because I think, you know, this is what I know about white people is that y'all need an instruction manual. I don't want this conversation to be prescriptive, like this is an option, uh, and more importantly, this is a way of thinking more broadly about all the considerations or some of the considerations at least that you have to make when making decision. And I think we're also saying that part of the pre conference is identifying whether you belong in the space at all before you even do the work of reaching out to your team and saying, Hey, I want to have a conversation. Let me name this thing. You have named it to yourself. That's part of the pre conference is it happens with keisha with keisha, right? keisha with keisha has a pre conference before she reaches out to Sandra to say, Hey boss, like this is the reality of the thing. And I think that's really important, but also how you approach this. Right? Is, is very kind to acknowledge me and my intersectional identities, and how you being a team to me in this space, not just the space that we're entering in, but you're also a team to me. So there are lots of relationships that are really important to manage. And we didn't talk about this in the pre, pre conference of this meeting. Um, but like, how did you. Did you think about the teaming aspect, when you were thinking about this stuff?
Sandra:I did think about the teaming aspect and I think the inherent white, me existing as a white person in that space means that there's additional work for you, right? And I think that naming the ask that I would have of an interpreter of color in those specific spaces was, for this assignment specifically, it was. Hey, just, if you could have extra, extra eyes on or extra attention to when I am voicing or when I am signing, when I'm, when I'm working, if there's something that you are like, Hey, that's not, that's not appropriate. Or if that is not the best fit language wise or whatever it is, I would really love to have that. Right? I think interpreters often say that they want open process and say that they're flexible with feeds and whatever it is. But I think we know as a larger community, to be honest, that's not always the case. Right. And it doesn't always feel safe to feed one another. And especially when we're talking about a privileged dynamic of a black interpreter feeding a white interpreter.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:I want to name the thing. I want to say, Hey, I know that I'm not going to get this right. Right. If there's, if it's another space that I'm a best fit for and whatever else. I may say, Hey, I've got the language, right? It's, it's, it's, it's, it's me. I've got this. This is my thing. This is my ongoing. This is what I know how to do. Well, I've got the words. So you can take it more easy as my team in these instances. Here. I wanted a heightened level of awareness, but I also knew that that would take more work and additional bandwidth for you just to team with me.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:I think that that was part of what my ask was. was and a part of what I knew would be more work for you stepping into that space.
keisha:Yeah. I, we didn't, we didn't make it, again, the job was canceled. Both of them were, ended up being canceled. But, so we didn't actually make it to the teaming aspect, but I don't think that, I think sometimes we get so limited to thinking about the work. We're like, oh, we're just interpreting, you know, we're just, you know, we see what you say, we're going to voice it or we hear what they're saying and we're going to sign it. And we think, What additional labor is there, right? What, what additional labor do you have to do just because, you know, you're a person of color and I'm not, you know, and I, I don't know how to even explain that there is an additional labor, right? Especially culturally, right? Like I know and the only thing I can think about is, is a job that I did where this lady was being completely misunderstood. There was a comment, this is actually a better example. Um, I was at a conference yesterday and they were talking about how, they are trying to come up with STEM signs for, that are standardized in ASL. And they asked these Gen Z ers, these, these little young people, they asked them, When you think of the word gas, you know, what, what do you think of? And little young sis says, Oh, I think of gasoline or like how Gen Z would say, Oh, that's gas. But you're also thinking about, um, like, I'm gas in this conversation, which is why I'm platforming it. And I think it's great. Like, I feel like, but I can't give you too much gas, right? Like not too much, because, you know, I don't want people to stop doing the work. I don't want you to think just because you did great this one time that you're not gonna white people again, because white people going white people, right? But if we go back to gas, like you think about gas, you think about like, I got gas, I ate some beans today, I got gas, all these different ways of talking about gas and that's the labor. But you add the cultural element that things that are inside the things that you know from growing up in this environment. Um, so you're managing, making sure that the message comes through correctly, and I'm listening to the fact that you cannot, that you already cannot not sound like the cultural representation, right? And so we just have to make sure that you don't also sound oppressive, right? Like, and, and in the sense that like, Ooh, not only is that not what they meant, but that is really wrong, right? And that's a lot of labor that I think, um, people should consider.
Sandra:Yes, and I think just the inherent moving, having culturally black content and being in a predominantly black space, moving that message through a white body, right? I'm competing in my mind with the dynamics of, I want to provide, I want to sound like, What you would sound like if you had spoken language. I also realize I am not a black woman I am not a black man I am not a black person and I have to ride a fine line between wanting to make sure I Have the correct intonation i'm using the correct words. I have all of the right things, but i'm also Not continuing to cause harm for someone of color in the room who can hear me and it's like she's not She's not a black girl.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:Why is she trying to sound like that?
keisha:Oh, come on. Yes
Sandra:Why is all of that happening? That is not who you are, right? And so I have, I as a white interpreter have to really make sure that I'm navigating those dynamics. And there's no perfect answer.
keisha:Sure.
Sandra:I have not figured out the answer. I'm still navigating what that looks like. And that is when I ask my teams who are interpreters of color in those spaces. Make sure that you watch me. My goal is to make sure that I would sound like what they would sound like. Understanding inherently there is a degree to which that is impossible.
Speaker 3:And
Sandra:if I'm riding over a line that feels inappropriate, I would love for you to tell me. Dial it back.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:And I would, I would hope that you would feel safe. I would like for you to feel safe. I'd like to set up a dynamic that feels safe for you to tell me. Mm mm. Tone it down.
keisha:Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I would, and I would, I would wait, I would wait, but I definitely would. But I also want to speak to the reality that I am Black, I am not Deaf. And so I'm also a little bit navigating that space in the same way that you are as an outsider. Like, that is an intersection I don't have at this current juncture in my life. And I cannot fully understand what that experience is. And you're talking about, Black Deaf history. Now, I can understand the ways that Black ASL overlaps with, African American language, right? Like, I live that. But I still think that as a hearing person, I sometimes, over, Exaggerate my own awareness of ASL or Black ASL, in ways that I shouldn't. Now, I've not been called on it, but I'm just saying, it's just an arrogant thing that me as someone who is able bodied, um, And I feel like, oh, no, I know that I got that. And I don't, I don't, I didn't start learning ASL until I was in my mid twenties, right? Like, I need to chill and fall back sometimes. And I think sometimes we go into these spaces and we don't come in humble and teachable. Um, and just because I do hit some of the intersections, don't hit enough of them to not come in, in that way.
Sandra:Right. And the reminder that Black people don't exist in a monolith. Right? So you cannot be the ultimate qualifier. Well, keisha said that I'm fine in black spaces.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:And then take that one experience and say, well, keisha and the ongoing interpreters said, I'm fine being in these black spaces. So like, what's your problem? I've been approved if you will. Right. And black spaces don't exist in a monolith. And that's where the advantage of pre conferencing or managing expectations, I would have had zero problems reaching out to the teacher and saying, Hey, I'm a white interpreter navigating this space. I have no problem. If you want to name that at the beginning of class, we have a white interpreter in the space today. Let's talk about it. It's going to create a different dynamic. If it feels weird for some of you all, let's talk about it. Let's talk about how to navigate this situation. As we have it right here, right now, and what a great opportunity for me to not only learn from people in that space, but what a great opportunity to create a safe space and model that conversation for young people.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:And model that conversation for other people. If I, it's part of my responsibility to go in and say, Hey, I, if you want to do that, that's fine. Right? I realize I'm the majority. I am the one with privilege and while. It is their right inherently at the end of the day to have that conversation. It may not always feel safe and you don't know me. I want to walk in and say, Hey, I'm, I'm really okay. If that's how you want to approach this, I'm really okay. If we want to name the weird thing in the room, I would encourage it. I will stand up. I will name it myself. If you would want, do you want me to facilitate the conversation? Would you like to facilitate? How would you like to manage this, but naming it ahead of time, rather than being like, I'm going to put my blinders on and just kind of hope that everybody feels okay with this and like maybe it'll be okay or having the arrogance of thinking well one black person has approved me so I should be fine in all of these spaces is is incorrect. It's an incorrect approach. It's not doing the work that white people or white interpreters should be doing.
keisha:Yeah, I appreciate you saying that, especially because, you did reach out to the team interpreter and I don't know her. And so I, I'm hopeful that she was able to evaluate whether or not you were a good fit, but I didn't know and, and I didn't know because the way that people of color deal with their oppression is very different, but I don't think there's anyone in this country that doesn't kind of, you know, Leverage white supremacy or try to get closer to whiteness in a way that reduces their sense of oppression. There are ways in which I do that sometimes that I think I, I, I can be in deep intimate relationships with white people without effectively evaluating their fittedness for my circle. because I am not an angry Black person, because I don't hate white people. And I think that is just the reality of white supremacy, is that to increase your proximity to whiteness, and therefore be the good Black person, or the good person of color, is a very real temptation. And I don't know this person, right? I don't know where they are on this journey. I think we all have to be on this journey. And so I was a little bit like, Mm, I'm not sure. She's saying you're good. She's saying that this is a safe space for you to be, and I'm still like, I don't know. I don't know. And what I did feel good about is that I didn't feel like you were like, Oh, I'm good. Like she said, I'm good. So I'm going in like, well, you, you, you heard what she said, right? I still felt like you were still doing the labor of, Like, you still checked in with me, you still were like, I hear what she's saying, and I see the names of these classes, I see who's teaching these classes, and I think that is really an important thing to recognize, is that no group of people are monolithic, and everyone has, differing perspectives, and you had said, you know, she could say I'm good, but somebody else in the class be like, Get out, you know, right. And so
Sandra:it's important to honor all of that, right? There's only so much that we can control. And I recognize that I'm there. I may have still caused harm. I may have done everything that I could do up until that point. And there may have still been someone who was triggered by me in that space or made a series of assumptions about me showing up in that space, even though I've done all of the work. But that again is part of the historical lens with which people of color have had their lived experience.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:And I have to consider that with grace and only know that if I'm approached I can say no I did the work. I really tried. I still recognize that I'm existing in this space and I am not a best fit at the end of the day. I'm not. But I am here and I would like to provide access and I, I understand that people still might feel some type of way and people still might have those takeaways and I can only do what I can to address that to the best of my ability and I still have to handle that with humility and grace and try to be the model that says no that's not always the case. Show you at least once that that that wasn't the case.
keisha:There are people who will watch the show and will still be like, yeah, I don't care what, I don't care what homegirl said. I don't care what work you did. You shouldn't have been there. And I think to some extent I'm like, yeah, especially because of where we work. Like there are plenty of interpreters who could have filled the spot. They're just, they're just a lot. There are lots of options that they could have used and employed. But they didn't. But I'm appreciative of this example is because I think more people outside of this kind of large interpreter space, this, this interpreter mecca, I think there are more people who will experience being in spaces where they should look at the job, and start having that pre conference conversation with themselves of should I be in this space and then what can I do to mitigate the harm, including not being in this space. And so it's a really important consideration because there are people and I, I, I, I still don't know. I just didn't think it was necessary, I'm not saying that there should be a one size fits all of whether, I'm not saying there's a one size fits all, and I don't want anybody to hear that. But I think if you can avoid it, then avoid it. But if you can't avoid it, then how do we do that well? and then also, accepting the level of harm and that there will be people still who are up in arms about this kind of decision that you've made despite.
Sandra:Which is, I think, fair and appropriate and I would invite those conversations of any Black or Brown interpreter that wanted to engage in that conversation. Yeah. I would love to hear that perspective. I would love to talk through it and know how they would have wanted me to do something differently. And if they are my future team, I would hope that they now know that, yes, you can have that conversation with me ahead of time. You, keisha, were my team, and you And I did the work together to decide that, yes, we could walk into this space together. And it was a decision that was not made in a vacuum. Now, the next, again, because Black people and Black interpreters don't exist in a monolith, had you been a different interpreter and you were like, absolutely not.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:You do not belong in this space. You need to recuse yourself immediately.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:Then as long as we're engaging in that conversation with a level of professional respect, I would have said, no questions asked. Thank you.
keisha:Yeah,
Sandra:absolutely. Let me recuse myself. And if I have further questions, are you open to the opportunity to dialogue about this? Can I understand more about your thought process? Because again, that is a part of my allyship work. Help me understand when that should be a decision I make. Help me understand that that's, that's the decision I need to make with you. Is this a one off instance? Would you like me to continue to check in with you on future jobs if this comes up again? Would you like me, if we're teaming together, to immediately recuse myself?
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:I think that every, every assignment and every space really has to be evaluated and we can't say, Nope, that's never appropriate at any given moment, at any given time. I think that it really, I value having a conversation. I value unpacking that. I value how do we get to the most and best equitable access? That's my goal at the end of the day.
keisha:That's it.
Sandra:I want to provide excellent access.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:I want to do that to the degree with which the constraints allow me because I'm not the only one making the decision and so as long as we can engage in those conversations in respectful and professional ways, any black or brown interpreter that would have made the decision that I immediately needed to recuse myself. I would invite that that is also a safe answer.
keisha:Yeah, yeah. But you know, I, I, I want to also speak to the fact that I think you were safe to have these conversations with. There are white, there were white interpreters who, I don't know, I might, it might be a snap judgment, but it's a safe judgment, you get what I'm saying? And where I would not feel safe saying, no, you shouldn't be here. Right? Because then what happens is, is they get all pissed and they're like, Oh, you're angry or you're racist, or they'll say some really outlandish bullshit. That's a real thing that happens when you try to have honest conversation about equitable access. That's what we're talking about is how we provide equitable access, but also be a good team and be open to that feedback. And there are people who are not open to that. And so then I have to decide what's safer for me to do in this space. And sometimes it means I suffer. And it's one of those things that I think about that used to happen a lot, working VRS is we would get, racist callers. Yeah. Right? Racist callers. And Sorensen's policy was that we had to stay on the call ten minutes. And so, if we got a racist caller, and I'm saying we because, you know, Black and Brown interpreters have talked about this, we would suffer through the call for 10 minutes because we couldn't see who we're transferring the call to. Right? Yeah. And so I feel like these are the kind of decisions that we're making is, are you safe enough for me to have this conversation or am I in the safest space which is kind of suffering in silence. And, you know, I think that is something people should know happens too, is that, you know, I want to work in safe spaces and it doesn't have to be overtly racist like the example that I'm talking about with VRS, but it could just be, I can't trust you to carry this advice about this assignment and the equitable access that we should be providing and are providing because you're in this space. And then I get kind of yelled at and accused of being something fill in the blank.
Sandra:Yeah, which is unfair and inappropriate. And I think that part of helping to create A safe space is me as the white interpreter opening the door to that conversation. That, that's the work that I can offer. Because I can't always be, I can't always be the safe person and there are may, there may be interpreters of color that would not have felt safe engaging in a conversation with me. And that, to a certain degree is outside of my control.
keisha:Sure.
Sandra:Um, I know that I can continue to do the work to open the door, to safely frame that conversation, to say that I'm open to options, to naming them all. If it's fair and appropriate in this moment, you don't have the bandwidth to manage any of this today and I should recuse myself immediately. Okay. Right. Hey, that is a fair answer. I think that opening the door to all options and creating that sense of I know as well. I recognize what could be happening for you. I won't make assumptions, but I recognize what could be happening for you. And this is where my concerns lay. I think open the door to safety. White interpreters can take that approach and to a certain degree, I can only control what I can control, right? I don't know people's lived history. I cannot understand what it feels like to live in a black or brown body. And safety exists on a spectrum. Yeah. It can change from day to day. And it may not have been a day. And I need to recognize that that's not about me. That is not about my teaming ability. That is about a larger framework that needs to be addressed. And part of the allyship work to the black and brown community is attempting to To open the door and that that is the work that you can do and you can't feel some type of way if a black or brown interpreter closes that door.
keisha:Yeah, I appreciate that.
Sandra:Open it and say I'm standing on the other side.
keisha:Yeah, I appreciate that, just that comment because I think it's a healthy space to be like, I can't control all of this. I can only do what I can do. And I think that is the ask. It is unreasonable to, to ask, you know, white interpreters, black interpreters, brown interpreters, ask anybody to do more labor than this, than their share. And I cannot ask you to try and undo my entire history with white interpreters. Like that is crazy. That's madness. And. I also think if that's what you're thinking about, then you aren't even able to take responsibility for what's actually yours, and the ways that you could cause harm. And there are ways that you just simply cannot solve for. It's there. And like, That's okay, right? And there are ways that as a hearing person, as a Black person, I'm going to cause harm. And I have to be ready to take ownership of that, to keep learning from those experiences, but that's okay. I do want to ask you just quickly about how you work on intentionally trying to be a safe person. For deaf people and for your teams in the interpreting space, but in general, I'm assuming that you have black and brown people in your life at large. You run into them in the supermarket, right? What is, what is your practice of trying to be safe?
Sandra:My practice of trying to be safe is, I think, began with doing some of that work on my own. I think it was reading books.
keisha:yea
Sandra:think it was taking workshops. I think it was. trying to educate myself as to what other lens existed and doing some of that additional work and formal education side of things on my own and then having those lenses and then engaging in conversations and just asking questions and identifying who feels comfortable? Listening to people's stories, listening to podcasts like yours, I think engaging in Seeking out friendships with interpreters of color, not just, or people of color, not just because I need a black or brown friend, but because I want to increase the diversity with which I am exposed to. I recognize I was raised in a predominantly white community where I existed. a ton of privilege. And where I live now, I'm in a predominantly black and brown community. I am in an interracial relationship. I am, I create, I seek curiosity, right? And seek stories. And I think really sitting with people's stories and hearing their lived truths and really trying to remember those things and making it less about me. Generally speaking, I think if we have an interaction with somebody who is super upset they had a bad day and somebody gets snippy with you in the grocery store or just those lived interactions and I continue to remind myself while I might want to snap back,
keisha:right,
Sandra:I also remind myself that that reaction is probably much more about what they have going on in their life. They just had a real bad day, Maybe they just got in a fight with their mom on the phone and now they're just trying to get in through the grocery store and our carts bumped accidentally or whatever it is, right? I try to remind myself that those reactions and those big feelings are much less about a reaction to me and much more about what they may have going on in life. And I try to remember to emotionally regulate myself. And approach it with humility and grace and recognize that I cannot understand people's lived experiences, but I can hear their stories and ask questions in a safe way because I've done the work and I understand how I've educated myself and the lenses with which I can put on things and Nothing, again, exists in a vacuum. It's not just about a Black experience. It's not just about you as a Black person. Let me ask these questions. Because not only are you Black, you are a woman. You are a certain generation. You are a educated woman. You are a this. You are a that. You existed in a space as a Black woman growing up that is different than somebody who existed in a large metropolis in New York City and right, like, I seek everyone's stories. I'm a, I'm a voracious story consumer. And so I think sometimes it's just about listening. Sit back and listen and try to understand from other people's perspective and take it as a lived truth. Whether or not you're like, Hmm, do I totally believe all of that? You got to release yourself from that and take that as someone's lived experience.
keisha:Well, let me ask you this because this sounds great. I love it. It really, it sounds really good to my ears. And. And how do you work on being intentional and not performative?
Sandra:Yes, I, what a, what a big question.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:And I think that it takes a really large part of living in authenticity.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:I think that we cannot kid ourselves. I am, I am not the perfect white person. I am not the model for white people. I am still going to make white people mistakes and I hope that I am just setting up a dynamic that is safe enough that I can be called on my white people mistakes and that I can learn in a mutually respectful way.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:And I think that, again, for me, what has been a really big driver in my life in many, many ways is, again, naming when something feels weird in my body, naming when something feels icky, because I'm usually not the only one. Right? We think sometimes we're the only one with that feeling, but I think naming it ahead of time. And I think, Okay. Naming expectations, naming and framing expectations has been really, really helpful for me in my life in, in many, many capacities. Um, I think that, that, that for me is what helps me continue the work and not feel performative. And even when I start to feel like I'm hovering on the edge of performative, I would attempt to name it. This, this is starting to feel, This is starting to feel performative for me. I feel like I'm just giving you what you want because I have to exist as that to be a white ally. Can we talk about that for a minute?
keisha:That's good.
Sandra:Right. I think even naming when I start to feel on the cusp of performative or saying this is starting to feel too far down a social justice lens for me. And I feel like we're forgetting the other things.
keisha:That's good.
Sandra:Can we just talk about why I feel that way for a minute? Is it safe enough for you in this moment? To, to be able to talk about that. Are you open to feedback in this moment? And the answer still needs to be safe enough to say no.
keisha:Yeah, that's good.
Sandra:And then I know I can go back and conference with someone who I do, who does feel safe or who I can say, even if it's another white person, Hey, this happened, can you offer me different lenses or perspectives on this? I started to jump into something that felt performative because I felt like I needed to do it in the moment. Help me unpack that. Right. And finding places where you can can name it and claim it, I think, is, is really important.
keisha:Yeah, that's good. That's really good. Okay, nothing to add to that. You heard her. She said it here. Um, I do want to wrap up with, um, just any thoughts that you have on pre conferencing in general. Is it, is, I'm assuming that This is your practice when you see something that gives you the ick. This is something that you've said several times today. But also just in general, when you see a job come through, is your approach different based on what the job is about?
Sandra:Oh yes, I'm a very real human interpreter and there are some days that I don't have the ability to have a full pre conference or I know I'm walking into children's story hour and we are reading Dr. Seuss and all we need to discuss is two minutes ahead of time, hey, would you like to go first? How can I best you in this space? And that is all that we need to talk about, right, is It is a generally very easy space to work within, and sometimes it is a two minute pre conference. Sometimes it is, we've been ongoing in this space for a while. We don't need other than, hey girl, how are you today?
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:It doesn't need to be a pre conference. And then recognizing that there are more complex assignments. Again, with the ultimate goal of providing excellent access.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:Does this job necessitate a longer pre conference? Does this necessitate the management of more expectations or the management of icky conversations or awkward conversations or things that could potentially become uncomfortable in the moment? That necessitates more pre conferencing and will also help me decide whether or not to accept those assignments. I have a full day. I cannot get to, you know, a pre conferencing and prep appropriately for this job and make sure my team feels supported and all of those things. So I'm not taking that job today.
keisha:Love it.
Sandra:Or whatever it means. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Pre conferencing exists on a spectrum. Sure.
keisha:Sure. Sure. Absolutely. And, and I am the kind of introvert. That, stranger danger. And so I feel really uncomfortable with pre conferencing with strangers. And I know how bad that sounds. And it's what it is. It's what it is. Well, I don't want to talk to you, ma'am. I don't know you I, and typically what happens is those people, reach out to me first. And I'm like, okay. Um, but. But you're right, like I will get out of that comfort zone to try and engage in ways that will be productive and effective, and I just do it a lot better with people I know, and when I have the capacity, so you're right, but I, I, I don't, I can't think of any, like, do's and don'ts of pre conferencing, but like, It's just an important consideration that we should all have.
Sandra:I think a very important consideration, and even for the introverts of the world, or for individuals who feel less inclined to engage in those conversations, what has helped me generally in my life is scripting,
keisha:right? Come on, talk about it.
Sandra:And practice a conversation that I know will be uncomfortable for me, or I will script and practice with my sister anything that I'm like, I would love to navigate through this, and I would love to hear how you say it. And I would love to maybe take some of your words and then I have scripts available and accessible to me and things that I've practiced and the, right, the world is theater. And so the more that you have practiced some of that scripting or the more that you have the go to responses, the more comfortable it begins to feel and the more like, oh, it could even be, An auto saved on your phone response. I know I need to reach out. I know I need to pre conference and I have literal written scripts that I can drag and drop and I don't really have to think about too much or I have my general needs are this and then I can just add specific to this assignment and drag and drop like I think there is a whole world of benefit to people who may be less inclined or may be less comfortable engaging in those information, engaging in those conversations, especially with strangers. I think there's a huge benefit to scripting and feeling it in your body multiple times over before having to engage in it.
keisha:I love that. It's super helpful for keisha. Very helpful. Um, do you have an example?
Sandra:Do I have an example? Yeah. I mean, I think, Without naming names or without calling any specific people out, there are, there is a specific interpreter and colleague that I've worked with for many years and she and I could not disagree on more things. It doesn't matter what it is, if it's life in general, if I want to understand a different perspective on any topic, she is the one that I go to. Um, and it's specifically, I feel very dominated by her. I feel very much like I have to conform to her way of interpreting on assignments. I feel very much like it is prescriptive to things that I'm not necessarily comfortable with.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:Um, and I literally practiced with my sister. I was like, I haven't thought, I have an assignment coming up with her and she's already reached out. 15 times, and she's already given me prescriptive ways of how we're going to be working together. And there are things I'm just not comfortable doing. And so we literally practice the conversation of, I want to be here and I want to support you. And I want to, I support you and the work that you're doing as a team member. I would hope that you will be able to support me in the same capacity. These are the things I'm comfortable doing.
keisha:Oh, that's good.
Sandra:Right. And so I literally practiced that conversation with her four or five times before I walked into the job the next day because I knew how the conversation was going to go. I had the language ready because I'm not personally someone who responds well in the moment or I know when I'm Emotionally elevated or emotionally activated. I don't have the most healed responses and I want to get snippy and that is not the way that I want to present myself to the world.
keisha:Yeah.
Sandra:And I had that script ready. I felt I had the power. I felt like I succinctly said what I needed to say and I was able to do it with respect.
keisha:Yeah, that's good. That's really good. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today I really enjoyed this conversation and I hope it's really effective and people really find benefit like I like I do I find a lot of benefit and and just Rehashing what happened and also having the conversation with you about it, which I hadn't had until recently Yeah And just to just reflect on what pre conferencing looks like and how it can really be helpful and supportive, but also this scripting thing is big. So I appreciate you. Yeah.
Sandra:Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. Anytime.
keisha:Okay.